I've been thinking about friendship a lot lately. Like, you get to a certain age and you realize the people you thought were your friends just aren't anymore. And you wonder what happened. Were you ever even really friends?

I talked to four people about this, and honestly, they were all in very different places. But they’ve all sat with this question of what they actually need from the people around them. And I think a lot of us haven't done that. Which made me wonder, what if that's the only thing standing between you and friendships that actually feel right?

You're listening to This Is How You Think, the show that remodels your mindset. I'm your host, Jule Kim. Let's dive in.

The first person I spoke to was Jackie. She's a mom, a piano teacher, and she's in a completely different place in life now versus ten years ago. So I asked her how her friendships have changed over the years.

Jackie:

I had children very young, like my early 20s, so I still was friends with all my friends from my age. Because, I mean, who else was I going to hang out with, kind of a thing, but it was hard because I was the only one who had children. 

So in my 30s, when I started homeschooling, I jumped all in with all of the other homeschooling parents who happened to be more about ten-ish years older than me. But it worked out really, really nicely, because that was where I was in my life, in my lifestyle, it matched theirs. 

And so now that my kids are grown, I have one left at home, but the other two are gone, doing their own thing. I'm finding myself in a whole new season of life, you know, like I'm not homeschooling, I'm not doing all these children things and driving to a gazillion places like you do in that season. 

So I find myself really just connecting with people from all over and having almost more of an online relationship, while I'm still maybe connecting and having coffee every once in a while with people that I used to hang out with in my 30s, but it's maybe once a month, like we have to be really intentional. 

The way that I hang out with my friends today is so completely different from the way that I hang out with my friends 10 years ago. I probably see one or two friends in person on a regular basis at this point, and I'm totally okay with that.

Jule:

She’s totally at peace, and honestly, I admire that. But when she talked about her 20s, it was a whole different story.

Jackie:

I had been trying to force these friendships for years to work, and it was really hard because I didn't have the kind of freedom that my other friends had, or, you know, they would want to stay up late and go into the clubs and doing all this fun stuff. And I'm like, Well, I got to wake up at seven in the morning and, you know, get my kids from my parents house. 

And so it felt very forced during my 20s. So it was, it was really nice when I did meet this other group of people, and I realized that that is what's important. Like, you can be friends with these people that you walked with in other parts of your life, but if it's not fitting with your season. You know, not that I want to say, Oh, these friendships were more convenient, but they just fit with my season and with me. And it was very easy to have these friendships versus the other ones that were hard because we just weren't in alignment, I guess, as you could say, but I'm still friends with them.

Jule:

And given where she’s at now, I wanted to know what her biggest challenge with friendship is today?

Jackie: 

Honestly, prioritizing them, and that's on me. I really have to be intentional on making time for them. So one friend in particular, we meet every summer, and we actually go through our calendar and plan a two hour coffee day, for once a month, and we have stuck with that for two years. And if we didn't do that, we would never see each other. 

Like we have nothing, like we're not in the same anything, any groups or whatever, and but I think because our friendship is very deep and meaningful, we recognize that we have to be intentional about that. But there's other ones that I have allowed to kind of fall, and I don't mean for that to happen, you know, but we only have so much time, like we're humans. We only have so much that we can do. And so I think that for me, sometimes I allow myself to, I allow the busy to take over when I need those friendships and to be intentional about them. 

Jule:

And then Jackie said something that really stuck with me. It wasn't just about the effort. 

Jackie: 

I think too, though, sometimes we hold on to those because maybe we have had that and, and I'm not saying that this is your situation whatsoever. You just got me thinking. Like the people that I was friends with in my 20s, they were friends with a different Jackie at the time. Like, I am not that same person, and they are not the same person, you know. 

And I'm sure that if I ran into some of them, which, you know, I follow a lot of them on Facebook, and I see their kids and their achievements, and I am like, Oh, yay, that's great. Congratulations, you know. And that's kind of where we're at. 

And if we actually ran into each other at the grocery store, I have a feeling that we would almost be having to get to know each other all over again, because we do change with every situation that happens to us and every new adventure that we have, and I think that that is why things evolve over seasons, because we become different people. And I do think it's a reality that you can grow out of a friend, you know, and maybe they're a great person, maybe you're a great person. Maybe nothing bad happened, but, you know, you just took different paths.

Jule:

So everything Jackie’s described, you notice how there's a certain level of just peace and acceptance? Like no one did anything wrong. Life just moved on. 

But not everyone I talked to had that kind of experience, like Mark. His story is really different.

Mark:

I was actually talking to my counselor about this recently. We were talking about how I've lost a lot of friends, but not in terms of quantity, but in terms of quality. I've had some really deep friendships in my life that have just withered away, and it's really sad. 

But to me, it took some time to process and accept that these weren't just like normal friends that you just kind of have for a season or two. These are like lifelong friends. 

And to me, anytime a relationship like that would end, it just made me question the value of me, the value of our friendships, the value of the depth that I can provide. And it kind of made me think like, is, am I enough? Like is, well, why would you not want this relationship that we had? It was, you know what? What about me made you not want this, and it took me some time to eventually understand that, process it, and eventually accept it. 

But yeah, that's something that I've been going through. And I'm just not a very shallow person. I love to have deep connections and relationships to people like talking about things that are just on my heart, on my soul, and I want to connect deeply. And thankfully, in life, I've been blessed with people that I've been able to do that, but when that gets taken away, it just leaves you wondering and a little bit sad.

Jule:

Oh my gosh. I'm sure so many people can relate to this, because it's not an easy transition, and everyone is always left with these questions. What you brought up. So what do you think has changed?

Mark:

In the relationship. Hmm. I think time and situations. In my case, I've had friends that I've lost to drugs, addictions. We just can't relate anymore. We went down different paths. And I think that's a big thing. I think that's one of those things that you can't really change. That's just how life goes sometimes. 

I think time changes. I think a lot of times it's one of the things that I wish, actually, you could go back in time and just experience things the way that they were, whenever you were in a certain time, going through certain situations that just enabled you to connect and relive these experiences that were just, I don't know, serendipitous, and you can't really take that back, you can't go back in time. You can't relive that. 

But eventually time moves on, life changes. I mean, it's just, I don't know what the one specific thing is that changes. It's just all the different choices that you make in life, they just add up, and eventually you find yourself on a different path.

Jule:

I think that's why I often describe friendships like sometimes you're lucky where you are at a train station and you and this other person are getting on the same train together to go to the same destination. And sometimes, one of you, or both of you, will hop off the train and go to different places, and you still meet up together later. But sometimes our destinations are meant to be elsewhere, and I think that's the painful part, is when you're not on the same journey, and we don’t like that, so we hang on.

This is where I asked Mark why he stayed as long as he did?

Mark: 

I think we just had such a deep connection. We grew up together. I mean, most of my life, I remember with this person. They were my best friend. And you just always believe in a better future, like you always have hope. You know, like. It will get better. We just get through this one rough spot. You know, I'm not the type to give up on people. 

I just always believed in the power of just, like, getting through this one thing, whatever it is, and you know, things will be better in the future. I've always been an optimist. I think that's what really kept me whole, like, holding on for a really long time. It's like, yeah I know this situation is really bad, and it just got went from bad to worse, but like, if we just last the year, if we just like, I don't know, I'm always thinking of, like, I don't want to throw in the towel. I'm always thinking of how, how to get through it.

I would say it was healthy for like, the first 15 years of our relationship was amazing, like best friends growing up, and then the last five is when it turned really, just like, a lot of hardships came up, yeah, and at that point, I wasn't getting much at that point. It was just giving, giving, giving, giving.

Jule:

So how do you measure whether the relationship is healthy?

Mark: 

Great question. Jule, I'll let you know when I figure it out. Hmmm. I think it has to support you. I think you have to get some sort of strength. You have to get something positive out of it. It can't, I guess. I guess you just do a good old fashioned gut check. If you just feel drained after interacting with this person all the time, then it's not healthy, probably, but if you feel inspired, motivated, invigorated, you feel a sense of life, then I think that's healthy.

Jule:

Talking to Mark gave me a lot to think about. But the next conversation I had took this whole friendship exploration in a direction I wasn't expecting.

Sandra:

As a woman, working professional in my 40s, and I do have a family, but I have one son, he's older, he's independent, right? So I would still like to go out and do things with people is making the time and having the energy for these people and getting that reciprocated, I find a lot of people want you to fit into their schedule, or they're very set in the type of activities or things they want to do, and if you don't want to do them all the time, because, to me a friend, there's some give and take. You don't always get to do what you want to do all the time, or you don't always get to go to your favorite restaurant. You don't get to pick the cuisine every single time you hang out with this friend. 

I've talked about this before. I've given you the example. I have a friend that really loves Italy. I don't know if it's Italiaphiile, he's very enamored with the whole entire country of Italy, and that's what he spends a lot of his time eating out. And for me, Italian cuisine is probably the least, or second least favorite cuisine for me. 

I will go in a group gathering. I don't mind going to Italian food to socialize with some people, but if that's the condition that I can only see this friend if we're going to eat Italian food, it makes it difficult, because then sometimes I wonder, why doesn't he ask me where I would like to eat, or what kind of cuisines am I interested in, or do I know a new restaurant? And then let's go there together.

Jule:

And I'm assuming he's not Italian, right?

Sandra:

No, no, he's not. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. You can be enamored with a certain other culture or cuisine.

Jule:

Okay, so what are some other examples, then? Because you and I have spoken about this, give and take in relationships or friendships. I have seen this posted about everywhere on social media. It comes up so much in my coaching sessions with my own clients, and I think that we have some kind of expectation of what a friend should do for us. So yeah, what does give and take look like first?

Sandra:

Oh, yeah, that's a good clarifying question, because I don't think a lot of people understand that either, and it's so funny, because I'll see this a lot, especially on the dating websites, where people will say they want to be friends first, which I don't think is a bad idea. I think that is a great way to build a relationship. I think you personally were friends first with your husband. 

But here's my huge caveat, a lot of people are not in scenarios where we work together. We don't go to school together, we we don't actually have natural, organic ways where we would see each other. So while that idea of Let's just be friends first, you know, it's very casual and all that. But there has to be some intentionality. 

You have to actually make some time to see the person if you don't actually work around them, you don't have any mutual friends, you don't have any overlapping activities. And I think a lot of people still want this, well, we're just going to run into each other, and that's not real life anymore, because now, like for instance, I work from home, so I have to make an attempt to leave my house and make plans with people. I'm not going to just go to a grocery store and run into everybody that I know, that would be nice. I wish sometimes, like, maybe if I lived in a smaller town, that might be more ideal. You would be running into the same people over and over. It can be more organic, and you could actually build maybe these friendships by just you just saw them all the time, and you're interacting with them in big group scenarios. 

But to me, living in a more urban area and working from home and having a busy schedule, I have to make time for my friends. I have to reach out to them, and not just because I want something. I have to I think a good friend reaches out to people, just how are you doing? I have nothing particularly in my life to share. I mean, besides, hopefully, maybe that life is going well, but I want to see what's going on with you. 

I think there's a statistic out there that says it takes 40 hours to actually feel like someone's truly a friend. Spending 40 hours with a person, which, if you think about it, takes a while, and that's what people are trying to shortcut. They want to call everyone a friend. They hung out once or twice. Friendships take weeks, months, maybe years, to develop, to actually build up to where you've actually spent 40 hours of time with this person.

Jule:

You're giving me flashbacks to my dad, because he's constantly, like, berating me for calling people friend. He's like, Oh, everybody's a friend to you. I'm like, Come on, Dad. Like, would you stop like, fucking with me? How awkward would it be if I was like, oh, this person who I know, who's on the outermost edge of my acquaintanceship, like, how I'm not gonna say that every time in conversation. Okay, so there's a part where friend, the label, can just be shorthand for this person I know without being so awkward about it, yeah. But then if we get down to, I think the heart of what you're really saying is, like, have you thought about who is actually a friend versus a person you just know?

Sandra:

Yeah, yeah. And I might be more like your dad, where I'm very cautious about where sometimes I might call someone a friend, but maybe 40 hours is a bad marker. It's more about the depth of that time sometimes right? Because if it's 40 hours of you've been to a group dinner with this person, maybe twice a year, a big group dinner setting, are you really going to get to know them very well? So I guess another definition of a friend to me is I would have to be comfortable with them one-on-one. There are some people. I see them a lot in group settings. I'm probably more comfortable if they're there with their partner or person they're dating, but I need to have more of a one on one type of relationship with them.

Jule:

Oh, that's interesting. Okay, since you're getting into this, then how are you defining what is a friend?

Sandra:

I think initially, it's okay if we bond over something. I don't think we have to have the most similar interest. I like people that can I mean, I think, honestly, one of my most favorite things is just talking to someone. 

If we can't have a good rapport of talking with each other, then I probably would not consider them a good friend, spending time with each other, checking in, even when you don't have something major you need to share. Ask them.

I want to say, help each other, but I don't know if that's a condition necessarily. I don't know maybe I would like to think that my friends would help me, but I probably don't always ask them for help, so I don't know if they actually come through to help me all the time. I think it's an ideal, but I'm not sure I need a lot of people's help or to call on them for help. So I would hope it's based on more than just needing their help. It has to be something beyond that. 

I think values are more, I hate to say that, because it's kind of like a fluffy term, that we would share some common values. I think that's deeper than like, being in the same profession or having the same interest, or even being in the same age group or stage in life that like, let's say they value travel a lot. I like traveling. I could see being friends with someone who has a zest for liking to travel and going on trips. 

I like people that are very truthful. I think that's a hard qualifier I'm gonna admit I'm not truthful all the time either, so I can't say… 

Jule:

What?! 

Sandra:

Well, no who can say they're 100% honest and truthful all the time. And you try to be. I want someone who tries to be honest and is truthful for the most part. I think that's one thing that turns me off from people super quick when I'm trying to get to know them, if I think they're dishonest about something.

Yeah, I think that's the main things. I mean, there's definitely like, nice to have, like, it'd be nice if they're also building a business like I am. It'd be nice if they like some of the same hobbies. It'd be nice if they liked eating out different cuisines. That would definitely enhance the friendship. It's nice if they're kind of like a foodie. They like looking up recipes, talking about food, checking out new restaurants.

Yeah, I'm trying to think, I don't think any of the others have deal breakers. If they're not a Christian, probably not a deal breaker. They're not into sports. I'm not into sports. I can't make that a criteria. So those are my main things.

Jule:

It was interesting seeing Sandra lay out her categories and criteria. I have my version, it looks very different, I think because it comes from tough experiences.

Jule:

Just seeing how certain people have behaved during the worst time of my life, it has shown me who they are in terms of, like, our friendship level. 

So for me, there are friendship levels. I'm like, you have moved yourself to non friend by your silence during the worst period of my life. So yeah, now I'm like, I know where I stand, so no thanks.

I know a lot of people would say that's really harsh. And I'm like, Okay, you do you boo. Like, I'm not telling you you have to operate this way, but this, this is me, and I know some of it is there are people who have actually reached out later and apologize for their silence because hearing about my brother sort of awakened trauma from their past grief. It's like I can understand that they took the time to explain that to me. 

So I'm more forgiving of that, but the friend who says they're a friend, but then acts as if nothing has changed in my life. I'm like, to me that is not a friend.

Sandra:

Oh, is it because they just want to stay at that surface level, like, let's catch up, let's have lunch, pretend everything's happy?

Jule:

I don't know if that's what they intentionally want, but they're not meeting my definition of what is a friend. So we share a lot of the same things, but I think of it as like in broader strokes than what you've laid out.

For me, a friend is somebody like you listed the one on one time there's good rapport talking, I'm like to me, a friend has to at least be somebody I enjoy spending time with. Like whatever amount of time I spend with them has to be enjoyable for me in some way. 

But then there's the part you mentioned, they're checking in even when there's nothing major going on, they don't need something from you, and you would like to think that they would help you, should you need even if you don't ask, and if you do ask, there is this hope that they would reach out and help you in some way should you need that? Right? So those, those things together, like that, they would check and perhaps help. 

I think that speaks to my other broad stroke thing is a friend is somebody who cares about you. And if you care about someone, they would do these things and other things. It's not like I'm scoring people or grading them, but you see what I mean? That's why this person, or like multiple people, who have behaved this way during my darkest time, I'm like, you don't fucking care about me. So no, thank you. You're not a friend. You have proven you did not meet that one criteria.

Jule:

Well sheesh, I was certainly fired up while I was talking to Sandra. I’ll just add here that some people will act as if nothing’s happened, they barely acknowledge you’re going through a tough time and I know it’s because they don’t know how to handle these situations. They’re afraid they’ll make it worse, or it’ll somehow be awkward, and unfortunately I’m just not into friendships like that anymore. Because I’m there for my friends, and I desire some level of support in return.

I’m not saying that everyone should have the same standards as me, but I can say that I’ve been a whole lot happier ever since I started re-orienting myself to people who actively support me and try to do right by me.

Now this next thing she says is something I end up working through with many of my clients, and is something I think everyone needs to hear.

Sandra:

You don't need everything from every single friend, right? Because it's not the person you're marrying.

Jule:

I see this friction happen a lot because we often expect our casual friends to be our crisis friends. We expect our fun friends to also be our deep conversation friends. And then when they can't be that, we feel let down. But did they reallt fail us? Or are we asking them for something they’re never going to be? I think it’s a question we all need to ask ourselves.

With that, we’re coming up on our last person, Von, and his view on friendship feels like the other side of all of this.

Von: 

When I was younger, I was so all about, oh, let's I meet you people. Oh, let's get some food. Let's do this and that. Now it's like, Nah, I've been our friends. It's a small circle, but I'm content. And I talked to my therapist about this too, and she goes, Well, like, it sounds like you don't have, like, a lot of you know your social circle is smaller and you don't really tend to like go out of your way to meet you people. And I said, no, I don't. 

I'm so stuck in my ways. I don't want to branch out. I don't want, there's a lot of effort to meet new people. You got to tell your story all over again. You got to see compatible this person, cool or not like. And to me, I just a lot of work. Maybe I'm being lazy. Maybe it's just, I know who I like, I you know, and I just don't want to really be out there as much as I used to be.

But I think as I got older, I learned that it's not about the quantity, not how many friends you have, but the quality of friends you have. And I feel like I'm content with my circle.

Jule:

Man, I really like what he said. It sounds so peaceful.

You know it’s funny because I went into these conversations thinking this was going to be all about what makes a good friend. And it kind of is. But after speaking with everyone, I realize this is more about what makes a good friend for you. And that's gonna look different for everybody, especially depending on what season of life you’re in like what Jackie says. It’s not necessarily that anyone did you dirty, sometimes you take different paths, and that’s ok.

Talking to Mark really hit home for me, because he speaks to something that I think we’ve all experienced at least once, there’s a grief of losing a long time friendship you didn’t choose to end. And the reality is, that kind of thing, it really hurts.

But on the flip side what do you do when you’re the one who’s always giving and giving in a friendship? This is where you might want to do that gut check and evaluate whether this relationship is healthy. Is there that give and take that Sandra mentions? How do you even define a friend?

And last but not least, I think what Von describes is something a lot of people would love to have, because no matter what anyone says, the truth is no one likes to be lonely. There’s something beautiful in being content with your circle of friends, just knowing who your people are and not feeling like you gotta be friends with everybody out there.

So if your friendships feel off, maybe it’s time to really think about what makes a friendship worth it for you? What do you actually need in your friendships, and who is able to give you that? If you can answer this, it’ll probably clear up some of those murky not-so-good feelings you’re carrying.

And look, I personally believe we all deserve to go where we’re celebrated, not tolerated. So if you feel like you’re not getting that, it might be time for you to go find you some better friends. Or maybe talk it out with your nearest and dearest. Because I know with the right people, it’s never too late.

Alright, that’s it for this week.

By the way, I’m working on a future episode on how to handle people at work. Is there somebody you just don’t get along with at work? What’s happening, and how come? Let me know by dropping me a message on Linkedin.

Special thanks to my guests. I couldn’t have done it without you guys.

Thanks so much for listening, and as always, I believe in you. See you next time.