SPEAKER_04 0:11

Motorcycle Man.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Hello, boys and girls, and welcome to episode 465 of the Motorcycle Men Podcast. I'm here, as always, in the corner booth at the V Twin Cafe, where the coffee is strong, the stories are long, and the hosts are usually wrong but always enthusiastic. Today we have a real great treat for you. We're joined by Court Butler of Butler Maps, the folks who've helped more riders find great roads than GPS units ever will. Court's here to talk about their brand new historic Route 66 Experience Series map. A deep dive into the mother road that blends history, rideability, and all the weird, wonderful Americana that makes Route 66 such a legend. We'll get into the research, the scouting, the landmarks, the surprises, and the sheer amount of saddle time it takes to turn a mythic highway into a map you can actually trust. So grab your helmet, top off your tank, and let's roll into the conversation after these words. Motorcycle Man Podcast is brought to you by Scorpion Helmets, offering high quality, innovative motorcycle helmets and technical apparel at an incredible value. To learn more, visit scorpionusa.com. And Wildass Seats. You can improve your comfort and ability to stay in the saddle longer with a cushion from Wildass Seats. So if you're tired of those painful pressure points and fatigue, go to wild-ass.com and get your cushion today. And Viking Bags, a new world leader in motorcycle luggage and one of the fastest growing companies in motorcycle parts. Luggage for whatever you ride and wherever you go. And as always, Tobacco Motorware for the best in casual riding gear for men and women. There's only one place you should be going, and that is tobacco motorware. Visit them at tobaccomotorware.com, and our listeners will get 10% off your order when you use the code MOTOMEN. Your safety is worth it. So get on over to Tobaccomotorware. That's tobacco motorware.com and get in Dave's pants. Alright, let's have that chat with Court Butler. Alright, boys and girls, we're back joining me uh all the way from lovely Colorado, Mr. Court Butler. Court, how you doing, sir?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Good, Ted. Good to see you.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Man, it's been a while since you've been on the show. We've we've already determined that it's been uh like six years, seven years since you've been in the show.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

I think um we were discussing before the interview that that uh a fellow colleague Bill Aikens and I caught that interview in a library because our Wi-Fi was out.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

That was pretty oh my god, it's been a while. And the thing is, I I think I may have wanted you on the show sooner than that or more since then, but who knows? Time goes crazy, right? So, how you been? Things good, yes, you guys are busy, I know.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yeah, things have been great. We've um we try to diversify our product offering a little bit, just uh um we recognize that most motorcyclists also have vehicles and they sometimes like to tour and explore in their vehicles. Right. And so we have some lines of maps that are not quite as motorcycle-centric, they're more like by any means. We we still have stayed true and loyal to uh you know our roots, right? And we have a lot of our heritage brands, but but you know, opening up these other brands to you know van lifers and overlanders has really seen an uptick in our in our busyness. Oh wow. It's been great.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Well, I'll tell you what, for those out there who don't know who you are and what you do, why don't you tell us all about that?

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Okay, well, I'll give a I'll give a synopsis. I won't I won't verbally vomit on all the listeners that don't want to hear me entrench them in founder bullshit. Um so uh I, along with my business partner Scott, and my uh late father started the company back in 2008. I had been uh guiding like like impromptu touring with friends and family and coming up with routes, and they said, why don't you why don't you you know make maps for people? So the original idea was to um kind of raise the bar and and provide a little bit more accountability than what was in the marketplace at that time. Um and go out this massive undertaking of going out on a motorcycle and the team riding every single paved road in each state that we were gonna wow. So it was a huge undertaking, and that's why we don't really have a competitive landscape because no one no one's been dumb enough to do that, you know, because it takes a huge amount of time and a huge amount of money. Yeah so that's that's what we uh set out to do. And the first two years from 2008 to 2010, that was the Rocky Mountains, which would have been um, let's see, we started with Colorado in May of 2010, and then uh we shortly uh released um we shortly released Utah and then Idaho, then Wyoming, then Montana. Uh, we wanted to front load all of our all of our like RP IP and content into the the marketplace, you know, at one time. So and then from then on, and you know, we released more products. We started you know Rebber a few years later and so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Wow. That's and you've had quite the history since then, since you're starting. You've you've released a quite a great number of maps. Lately, though, uh you've sparked this idea for this new historic Route 66 experience series map. And how did you decide what story this version of Route 66 needed to tell?

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Um, so Ted, that that's uh along the lines of, like you said, our experience series lineup, which is kind of more of like a by-any means, but but the but the the buzzwords there are a historical, unique, iconic route that people you know can take their motorcycle on, their van on, their car on, you know, and and you know, find all these really cool, not to miss bucket list mission critical points of interest, and really get a lot of confidence in in not only being able to experience and explore that route by that map, but also see some things that they may not see in some competing guidebooks or other things like that. So we had produced a Route 66 2 map set years ago. Um, we partnered with what most people would consider the modern day uh Route 66 Whisperer, his name's Jerry McClanahan.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

He uh Oh, yeah, Jerry, I know the name well.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Okay, so Jerry wrote a book called Easy66, Guide to Route 66 for the Mother Road. So we partnered with him back in 2000. I'd say that was about the time we we were on your show last time, about 17 or 18.

SPEAKER_04 7:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Long time ago. It was a two-map set. We had a western segment and we had an eastern segment. Um, what we what we tried to do is use that map in lockstep with his book. So we tried to distill down all of the information in his book and our interviews and a lot of our you know uh experiences with him onto that map. But what it ended up being was just this huge data dump of a ton of information, kind of overwhelming. It just showed every single diner, every single lodge, every single so it was just huge, and it was kind of overwhelming. But the reason we wanted to revamp it was, you know, we were getting low on that inventory. It needed to be uploaded, updated, you know, since our previous printings like a year and a half, two years ago. And we wanted to really consolidate and enhance the experience to make what we consider, you know, some of the big differences why we would consider this map a standalone product in the mountains of other, you know, competitive products in the marketplace would be, you know, we have legends and lore that we add into these into these experience series maps. We have bonus intrigue, we have memorable stays and lodges, we have you know hikes, we have all the best campsites, you know, top top 20 best hikes, top, you know, uh a huge RV section, band lifer section for you know, need to know information. So it's it's a huge resource for a lot of people, and it and it can consolidate when you're thinking about going to ride or drive around like the mother road, where do you start? Like, like it can be overwhelming, it's almost 3,000 miles long. So you um we found that most of our customers wanted something that was uh an easily digestible resource with the most mission critical not to miss points of interest. Because most people, when they're going to explore something new, they don't want to see the mediocre points of interest. Everybody wants to see the best stuff in their two weeks they have to outlay until they go back to work.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

So that was some of the reason why we wanted to revitalize and revamp this new this new edition.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Wow, it's funny you mentioned Jerry because um I don't know if you know uh Bear from Orange and Black Tours, but he turned me on to Jerry. He told me about Jerry and said, You gotta get him on your show. So I've been in contact with Jerry through text messages, and apparently he's been sick and he's been busy, and I'm trying to get him scheduled for the show. So that's pretty it'll be a very interesting follow-up to this.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yes, it will be. He's a great guy. Um he actually he helped us tremendously. You know, you don't know what you don't know, right? And so once you start digging into something, you're like, holy shit, where do we start here? Right, you know, and especially with AI and and everything being so crowdsourced, it's hard to get a definitive uh impression that's not subjective. And so that's why we reached out to him. I mean, this was originally reached out to him before AI was kind of more of a more of a customer uh reaching, you know, model or or uh technology. But like, so we reached out to him to really get to download everything that he has you know spent his life trying to refine and get, you know, have a you know, try to memorialize the the all the different alignments of of this uh this awesome iconic route, which which this year is actually a centennial year.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

And there are a lot of alignments for that road.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

There are a lot of alignments, you know. He even talks about that in his book, that there's different there's different iterations of the road. You know, uh that road was first uh created in in 1926. So 2026 is the centennial year, so there's gonna be a lot of cool events around it. Um and at that time there was less than 800 miles of actual pavement. The rest was dirt, it was it was logging, uh like bridges, things like that. And so I would say Route 66 is kind of low-hanging fruit when it comes to how we our methodologies to find these old routes from bygone eras, you know, like overland route or uh Oregon Trail. Those are more those are more challenging because a lot of those routes, they don't actually exist, or if they exist, it's on it's on you know, some private landownership, or it's yeah, you know, a middle of Wyoming, the the there's a plaque or there's a sign that says the overland route, and you don't see anything but like grasses.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Exactly. Yeah, well, at the risk of repeating something you may have already said, now Route 66 has been mapped countless times by different organizations. What this but this time, what has Butler Maps done that's different from what everybody else has done?

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Yeah, well, so I touched a little bit about some of our uh distilled down information to where we feel like is the most mission critical to what you should stop and experience on that route. If it's on that map, it's either falls into a category of it's one of the top 20 hikes along the route. If you'd like to hike, you know, you'll find that Route 66, a lot of that route is flat. So you can find there's some challenge to figure out some good trails and iconic, you know, historical things that might touch on some Americana there. But we found what we consider the best 20 hiking experiences to hit that demographic. If if you want to stretch the legs, get out of the van or off the motorcycle. We have um what we consider bonus intrigue and legends and lore. And we we found that anytime you incorporate some like legends and lore to an experience, you kind of pique people's interest. Maybe you get the little the the hair on the back of your neck stands up when you think about like a bridge where you see like the paranormal lights that are um uh you know unexplained in the in the evenings, things like that. So we've tried to tie that in to make it a little bit more sticky and a little bit more exciting for people. So there's a bunch of uh legends and lore, bonus intrigue, plus, like I said, not everybody has Jerry McClanahan on their shoulder. You know, that is a huge value proposition. And um, like it's like an IYKYK, you know. So if you if you know who he is, you know that he has really spent most of his life trying to perfect and and rehone all of the noise and the standard deviation with crap information about that route. But there's a ton. You can you can you can go into a bookstore and you can see an entire shelf under the travel section, yeah, you know, uh on Route 66. And and knowing the stuff that's still open, knowing the stuff that's really cool, that's actually authentic instead of somebody that just builds something that's kind of like a restaurant type thing.

unknown 14:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Um that's where that's where Jerry comes in really handy.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Wow. Now, can you walk us through the research process? I mean how you chose which uh which items made the cut, and were there any hidden gems that uh you were excited to highlight?

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Um, so the research process goes back to our very first experience series map, which is the Blue Ridge Parkway.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Okay, wow, okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Uh and a few project managers had thrown around some concepts and ideas about what we felt like over the last 18 or 20 years in the motorcycle industry, we wanted on a resource, a map, you know, an analog product in a digital world, what things could hold people's attention and be like a like a bread trail, a treasure, a treasure map type experience.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Um, and we came up with these um, you know, uh these intrigues, these legends and lores, these historic uh lodges and memorable stays, these all of these um don't miss this things that you're like, wow, of the hundred things that you may be able to see and do on a 200-mile stretch in one of our sections on Route 66 Pro. What would be the things that you know, not everybody has the time or the passion, like Jerry, for example, that can explore every single square foot of that route. Wow. You know, and so you really want to distill it down to things that are usable and and duplicatable for most people to do on any given trip. And so we distilled it down to, you know, five, six, sometimes seven really mission critical things to hit on that section, and then you go to the next section. And so within that section, you can take as little or as long as you want. You know, a lot of times we have other ancillary content that will back up to that section around the country. So if you're on a motorcycle, for example, or your sports car and you're a little bit, you know, bored by the straight road, which is most of Eastern Route 66, um, you can take, you know, you can take some of our like our Ozarks map, for example, or our Wisconsin map, you know, you can and and you can um dovetail in those maps with the best twisties, you know, and the best dirt roads and stuff. So if you want some other ancillary resources to actually um piggyback off of that experience uh series route, um that's available as well. So yeah, and that's another thing to touch on. You know, like you had you had said, what what hidden gems would you um would you like to impart to people? So the eastern part of Route 66 probably has the most historical ramifications in Americana, and that's that's where we find the most amount of history. So you go Texas east to Chicago has a tremendous amount of history, and we try to tie that in to the experience because you don't have as much of the really cool riding, for example, right? Like once you hit New Mexico and you get up into Santa Fe and you go to Seligman and Oatman, you know, uh you get to some really cool um sections of of that route that can hold its own because you have beautiful views. I mean, the views are different when you get to the east, when you get further east, the views are amazing because you can be in in Comanche grassland, you can be uh in beautiful agricultural cornfields, and it's just it's a really cool experience for people like us that are used to being in the mountains. You go there, you go to the eastern more segments, and it's less about you know the twisties and burning the turns and more about oh my gosh, that is such a really that's such a cool place to see. I gotta stop there and experience, you know, taking yourself back, you know, 75, 100 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Wow. Now, as far as it goes for uh the the route itself, how much time did your team spend riding, scouting, and verifying the alignments of each historic uh route?

SPEAKER_00 18:10

So over the years, we've spent uh man, I don't even know the amount of hours, but it would be it would be inordinately high. Um we've ridden the route several times. No kidding the route several times. Um on a motorcycle, the eastern part can be a little bit ho-hum unless you are a history buff. And it's all it's all the headspace you gotta get yourself in. You gotta manage expectations of this route being this is a slice of Americana. There's something so magnificent about this route because it was such a big undertaking in the early in the early 20th century. Okay, that if you go into it with that headspace of, oh, I want to be this history geek and and and find all these cool old drive-ins and motor coach ins and 50 style diners, because that's how America was 75 years ago. Yeah, yeah. And you want to like have a snapshot of how it was, take yourself back, then it's an outstanding, unforgettable experience.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Um, so from that perspective, we tried to um find as much of that stuff still intact and operable. Um and you know, I haven't personally ridden the road in the last three years, I would say. I mean, that's still pretty, that's still pretty recent, riding a 3,000-mile road. Sure. So our team, I think we've um collectively, I think we've probably ridden it six or seven times with the organization. And you know, and and then and then you know, Jerry in his book has a lot of the different alignments, talks about them. And um, you know, the m the majority of the route is I-40 now, you know, but you can but if you want to really get down to the minutiae, you can you can hop off on these frontage roads that were the original, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

I mean, I was just gonna say that. I know there are parts of I-40 uh as you get west through Texas, uh, even there are these front frontage roads or it is like these two-lane roads right next to I-40 that are labeled uh old Route 66.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah, they are. Yeah, it just depends on on how much you want to geek out at actually doing the experience. Yeah, yeah. You know, if you've done it once, it's probably you probably don't want to do it again. You know, it's I mean, it's like like getting off every single exit to do a four-mile frontage road and getting back on. Like we've done all of those, and there's a lot of them. And then the next times we do it, we'll just blast right by being like, okay, that's that's that alignment hasn't changed, things like that. So we didn't do nearly as much due diligence on Route 66 because we had that map in queue from seven years ago.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

And there's there's not very many, uh there's no other realignments recently. All the all the realignments have been, you know, decades and decades ago.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah. Now going with your experience series of maps, uh, would your guys always managed uh history and rideability into these maps. Now, what elements, uh historical elements of the most were the most important to preserve, and how did you balance that with the needs of you know today's riders, for example?

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah, that's a good question. So um I think that uh like I said, it's all about headspace when you when you um use consult one of these experience series maps. You have to get yourself in the headspace of kind of slowing down and recognizing how things used to be, especially in the Route 66 as an example. You know, 75 years ago, things were a lot different than they are now. Roads looked a lot different, yeah. Diners looked a lot different, you know, motels looked a lot different, and you can still experience that, albeit in intermittent, you know, stage stops along the route. You have to get yourself in that headspace of this is a less is more type thing. Sure. You're not trying to burn down the highway as fast as you can. And tick it off as fast as you can, like one of the PDR routes or one of some of our G1 series maps. This is this is about like uh cultivating that experience of slowing down and smelling the roses, like my dad always used to say. So so that would be probably one of the things that that we really tried to impart with these routes is taking that historical perspective and making that kind of paramount with that route. You know, we're coming out with a Pacific Coast Highway map, uh uh Loneliest Road in America map, Highway 50. And those are there's such a historical aspect to those routes that we're trying to keep that front and front and center.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Wow, that's great. Uh talking about the challenges that you, I'm sure you guys faced a lot of challenges doing this whole thing, but talking about these challenges, uh, what was the biggest challenge in mapping the route? A route which has been realigned, abandoned, and paved over bunches of times. Uh, how much detective work did you have to get involved with this?

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Ted, I don't think we had to get in as much as you may think, typically. Because, like I said, I go back to Jerry, and Jerry was kind of like the adult in the room with this with this project. He's like, this is what I found. Such a humble, such a great dude. Yeah. You're like, okay, this is this is gold, this is amazing. And so we didn't have to do too much. Now, some of the routes that we're planning on doing, there's a ton of detective. Oh, yeah. There's a ton of, there's, you know, it has, you know, our Cardo team, they're really resourceful in pulling old GIS plats and things like that that show show old road data and alignments. So, so a lot of it boils down to how forensic you want to get. And in our case, we're map makers, so we have to be pretty accurate with that stuff. Sure. Say, for example, you have a thousand mile-long route. Well, you're pouring through a thousand miles of USGS and old core of engineers maps that actually show previous alignments, and then you're trying to overlay that on, say, you know, uh ArcGIS, for example, which is a mapping platform.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Familiar with it.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

And seeing where they differentiate. And if there's a realignment, it's usually for a good reason. It's usually because that parcel was re-annexed or subdivided, and now it's a private landowner, and that doesn't exist anymore. It's not because of any other reason, really. Okay. Or because in our in our world of just things are moving faster and faster, they built a bigger road with faster speed limits that could you know handle more people, and sure that slower experience is kind of getting pushed away. And that's what we kind of really like about these experience series, is it's it's kind of trying to get people off, or at least slowing down off these main busy congested highways and exploring these slower, you know, iconic experiences.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Oh, okay. Uh now for somebody, and I know there's going to be riders out there who are going to say, Oh, yeah, I could take the tour, use the tour company, but I really want to do this myself. And look, Butler Maps has this map now that I can use. So for riders who are planning their own Route 66 adventure, what insights or don't miss sections or key elements are are in there that might surprise them?

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Um I would say that I I've always been under the mindset of, you know, I want the confidence to be able to just go undertake a project or, you know, an experience like this with myself. So a lot of that boils down to how confident that resource makes you feel to be able to do it yourself. Now, some people will want to use a tour company, and there's I'm not, you know, there's pros and cons to each, but uh we've tried to build this resource to be completely uh self-contained to giving you every single little experience that you want on that route. Now, we're not saying you don't need a GPS or you don't need your uh smartphone with you know Google Maps or Apple Maps. I mean, we wouldn't we wouldn't advocate taking this Route 66 map and trying to get through Santa Monica to the pier, you know, trying to get through LA with just the map. I mean, you need more detail than that. But this map is an overview consultation piece that you can take while you're riding or driving and say, okay, here's an inset box that's an expanded view of this section, section eight, for example. And these are all of these points of interest that Butler has on here. And oh, this is cool. This is a lodge that I really want to stay at. And oh wow, I didn't realize this driving was still here, or things like that. And so when people consult the map, really quickly they'll start to get a little bit more confident. And you know, maybe I don't need a guide, maybe I can take this map and my phone and I can hit the road, and that's kind of what we're trying to try to instill the confidence in people to be able to do.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Now, let me ask you this question, and maybe you can't answer this one, and I understand if you can't. Um But for somebody who decides they want to do Route 66 on their own, they want to use your map and perhaps a GPS, like they should like you recommend. How much would a trip like that from beginning to end cost them?

SPEAKER_00 27:20

And they want to stay, and they don't want to camp. They want to stay in a in a like a like a motor coach every night or exactly.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Um you have a ballpark number of what they do.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Like we we we try to create that level of efficiency to keep the the the bills down. If you we have eight riders on the road at one given time, yeah, you know, we we that gets expensive with with food and lodging, and so we try to advocate everybody, you know. Camping is fun anyway on a motorcycle in a vehicle. So but if you were gonna stay in a lodge, you could I think you could probably um see you could probably do it for two grand. No, I think. Uh it's probably a little higher than that with fuel prices right now, but that's hopefully gonna come down pretty quick. And on a motorcycle, for example, that's it's it's quite a bit more efficient, you know. So I'm just thinking, you know, the most expensive parts of your trip are gonna be the western segments. Because when you get closer to cities, prices go up. You know, when you get in the Rocky Mountains, when you get, you know, when you get um a little bit west of Santa Fe, prices will tend to go up. They'll dip down a little bit when you get to Arizona, then they'll skyrocket when you get in California. But as you head east uh through the flatlands and um the Great Plains, things will get a lot more um value-oriented, I guess I'll say.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Uh, you'll be able to stay in motor coachings for$85,$90 a night, you know? Yeah. Which, like, if my dad was still alive, he would have just been like, this is such a ripoff, because back in his day, they were like$30 a night. Exactly. But like$85 a night to stay in a place. I don't know about you, but I look at that and I'm like, that is a steal. That's pretty good. You know. So um, I would budget more of your more of your money, save more of your money, you know, as you head west. Because that's the thing, you know, our map, we've we suggest that people explore this route if it's possible logistically, from Chicago to Santa Monica.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

And it's because that's the original reason, that's the original direction. The route was meant to be laid out. It also, you know, so things kind of follow in lockstep and sequentially when you ride it or drive it from east to west. So, you know, uh, you know, you'll you'll leave Chicago and and then you really quickly get to some really cool points of interest. You're in the plains, and then as you head through Texas, there's just such a such a different level of like chapters you open and close on the route because it's so long, yeah, yeah. And it gives you such a cool snapshot of like the interior of the United States. The the amount of diversity this country has is outstanding. You you see so many you know global travelers now that want to go see all these other countries around the world, and I do it as well. I love it, but but we have so much diversity in this country. There's the there's you know the the Wild West with John Wayne. What other country has that? You know, there's uh the Great Desert Southwest with tomorrow cactuses, we have redwoods, we have sequoias, we have huge mountains, young mountain ranges like the Rocky Mountains are relatively young, and so that's really jagged, you know, Alps like terrains. So we have so much diversity in this country, yeah, and that's what a route like this really showcases is the level of diversity.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Oh, absolutely. How long would it take? Not going, you know, not going driving crazy, but uh, on average, how long would a ride like that take from beginning to end?

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Um, you could probably do it in 10 days, 10 days to two weeks. Okay, pretty comfortably. You know, that'd be about 300 miles a day. And that's not too bad because a lot of the route is just arrow straight.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

But but you also like that's that's if you really wanted to rush through it. I would say two weeks to two and a half weeks. If you want to take your time, take advantage of the hikes that we have on there, take advantage of seeing these cool Americana points of interest and exploring the areas around there. That's how we suggest, but we recognize not everybody has that amount of time. But I would say 10 to 14 days is a pretty good uh shot to be able to make the whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Okay, that's pretty cool. That's good. Now, for somebody who has never ridden Route 66, what does this map uh help them understand about the spirit culture and the evolution of the uh mother road, as they say?

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Yeah, um, well, like I just talked about, the diversity of this country. You you you really do see a lot of different cultures packed into one route. There's no way you can't because it goes, you know, so far across the country.

SPEAKER_04 31:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

And you'll see that uh there are these little snapshots that you can see along this route that have these preserved uh yesteryears of time. You can be like, wow, that's so cool. I can I can imagine how things were back then when you get to a little town and it's little mon paw, you know, true value hardware type, like hardware stores or like like little mon paw diners, things like that. How things used to be 40, 50, 60 years ago. Yeah, you see these little towns that kind of still have that influence and that dynamic going. And we don't see that out west as much when you're in, you know, more city-oriented areas. Everything is trying is so you know progressive and things are trying to move so fast, innovate so fast, which is good, but it's also cool to see that contrast. And that is one thing that I feel like the mother road really does showcase. It showcases a contrast of an analog generation versus like this technical. Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

That's a great, that's a great way to describe it. Excellent way to describe it. Uh, with regard to the Route 66 mapping and all that, do you have a favorite part?

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Um, yes, I think my favorite part is the Arizona sections uh near Seligman and Oatman. Um, I just I I like the stuff out east, um, but I really like the desert southwest. I really love the desert landscape. I love these little towns you get to, like Oatmen, where you have these wild donkeys. You know, they come up to you in town. Some of them can be little jackasses sometimes and nippy and stuff. They're just looking for food and stuff, but it's such a unique experience. Selegman is a town that is uh it's literally there to cater to people that are Route 66 buffs. Everything about that town is Route 66. They've really tried to keep it as authentic as possible, and it's a cool experience. So, so I would say the New Mexico, Arizona sections of that route to me are just absolutely fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

Isn't Arizona where the trading post is? That infamous trading uh the that it's that infamous trading post that actually they they're working on restoring it right now, I believe.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Cameron trading post? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That one. Yeah, that's that's it's it's um off the route, uh Route 66 route, but it's near it's near Grand Canyon.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Okay, all right. Wow, that's pretty cool. Now, outside of the Route 66 map, now Butler Maps has been has released several new titles recently. Uh, which new map are you most excited about right now and why?

SPEAKER_00 34:39

It's available or coming down the pipeline?

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Uh well, it's available now.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Um, I mean, I would have never known that we would have as many pre-orders for Route 66 as we do. Actually, that map is like like I told you yesterday when we had to cancel the interview. I picked this up from the printer yesterday. So it is shipping today. We have a ton of pre-orders, so I wouldn't have the whole team wouldn't have thought that that one wouldn't have would have been so popular just because we had a Route 66 already on the shelves a few months ago. But I would say um Natchez Trace is a really cool sleeper route. Um that's another super historical experience on the East Coast. Um Blue Ridge Parkway is awesome. A lot of people know about Blue Ridge Parkway. Yeah, there's a lot of resources out there. Um, but I would say Natchez Trace is such a cool, cool experience, especially if you like if you wanted to just go crazy and you had several months, you could do a Route 66 route. You know, you could do a Pacific Coast Highway, which is an experience series map we're coming out with next month. You could do Route 66, and then you could do Natchez Trace up to Blue Ridge Park, and you would have more history, you'd have history soaking out of your pores.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

That's great. Uh as far as it goes for uh well like um rider feedback, how much does that influence your maps uh in maps in your current lineup or maps in your future lineup? How does that affect what you guys decide you want to do?

SPEAKER_00 36:08

A ton. Yeah, we uh that's such that's such a a valuable thing that you know that that we can receive. And since the beginning, I I still see all of the customer responses that come in. Nice, the great reviews, the not so good reviews. I like the not so good reviews just as well as the great reviews because they'll show you what you can what what you can improve upon. Yeah, um, but writer feedback is huge. Uh we we've gotten some of our uh some some really good ideas from customers that are like actually, we just got a customer that said on our Natchez Trace map, um, you guys really missed one huge iconic aspect to that route, and it's the blues trail. You know, that's that's the that's the the birthplace of of Elvis Presley. There's there's this whole dynamic of the Natchez Trace that has to do with the generation to where the blues was such a profound aspect in American history, and we missed that. And I was like, well, that's just that's just you know, in our own humility, it's just you know, you can always add to things, and maps are no no exception. So it's something that we have already pending on, you know, when we run out of this first edition to the second edition. That map is outstanding, but he made such a great point that we probably wouldn't have initially thought of if it wasn't for that.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

So okay. Now, what do you what does Butler Maps do? Because roads are changing constantly. What does uh what does Butler Maps do about that, about updating their maps? Is that something that you guys are constantly on?

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Yes. Um, so our car our cartography team, uh, we have Thad, Ryan, and Neil. Those guys are like road wizards. So they get they get updates from uh departments of transportation from these dates, smilepost locator files, nomenclature that changes, closed, you know, roads that may be previously dirt, now they're paved.

SPEAKER_03 38:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

So as much as possible, we try to stay on top of that. And then so what we can do internally is we print smaller press runs. Okay. Um, specifically because, you know, a digital screen you can you can change with some bit of code, but a map, you know, if you print something wrong, it's sitting there until you run out of until you run out of copies in your in your warehouse. And so we try to print smaller amounts uh of maps. I think we print right around 2,500 or 3,000 copies per time. Now, the economies of scale really work to your advantage in the printing industry. So if we were gonna print five or ten thousand maps, we could get them for way cheaper. But we found that we were throwing maps or recycling maps because so many things would change on that map. Yeah. We want to sell an old, you know, outmoded map product to our customers. You know, we've kind of held our regard higher than that. So that's why we said, okay, we're gonna bite the bullet. We pay more per unit at these smaller quantities, but we can go through them in about 10 months, I'd say.

SPEAKER_03 39:08

Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

So that that keeps them relevant enough that in 10 months things can change, obviously, but not so much as as if you had maps for sure, you know, three or four or five years. That lots change in that time frame.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Okay, now talk to me about off-road maps. Are you guys doing much of that? Because I know BDR has like really kind of like cornered the market there in that and in that respect. But how much off-road stuff are you guys doing?

SPEAKER_00 39:36

So the BDR is great. Actually, we we were part of the founding team of the BDR that's great. Good, great. So it was Paul Gillian, Bryce, Stevens, uh, my business partner, previous business partner, Justin Bradshaw, and it was and it was just like this band of brothers that was like those guys, Paul and Bryce, came to us and said, Hey, we have this idea. Do you guys want to make maps for these routes? And we're like, Oh, cool, that sounds awesome. So nobody made any money. We all did this shit for free and hoping we could keep the doors open. Yeah. The very first BDR route was like 2010, I believe, is Washington. Yeah, and we had like some of the OGs on there, Tom Myers, who was the founder of Turitech USA, and we had Helgay Peterson and some of the some of the guy. And so at the time, and still there's a there's a documentary that that moves in lockstep with the map and the tracks.

SPEAKER_03 40:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

And so now the BDR has like 15 main heritage routes and probably 15 BDRXs.

SPEAKER_03 40:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

We still do all of their cartographic work.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

In fact, you know, um, you know, we will always be strategic partners just because that's that's all we have is love for one another. Excellent. So, but as far as uh like germane dirt content uh for Butler maps, yes. We about 10, I think it'd be about 12 years ago now, 12 or 13 years ago now, Ted, we determined this was from a customer. Yeah, um, we determined that our G1 series, these are our heritage series, our legacy Lana maps, G1 series, they have the patented road ratings that we that we put into the maps. Um, a customer said, you know, these maps would be such a great dual sport resource, adventure bike resource. You know, you have all the best paid roads, but but a lot of dual sport riders, they like to hot scotch from really good twisties pavement to really good dirt. And so why don't you guys add that layer of information? That's how you know we brought Bill Aikens in. Yeah, and he helped us drop these, what we consider recommended dirt roads, onto every single one of our G1 series maps. That's been from the last you know 12 or 13 years since we've been on there.

SPEAKER_04 41:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

And then a few years ago, uh a previous project manager of ours, Michael Bilecki with the BDR, he used to work for us, and he um he and I discussed doing something that a lot of riders had wanted with the BDR, had wanted from us, um, that they wanted to know the best routes to get to and from these iconic mission-critical BDR routes.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

They want to find out, okay, if I ride, if I fly into Denver and I rent my bike in Denver, how do I get down to Cortez using dirt? And we didn't really have a definable way to tell them. And so that experience, uh, that insight uh led us into creating these maps, the map line called the adventure series.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

The adventure series moves, you know, they really complement VDR maps because the VDR shows this one single circuitous route across a state, an area, or region.

SPEAKER_03 42:35

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

But these adventure series maps show what we consider smaller bite-sized adventures all around that state.

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

So instead of somebody needing to maybe outlay a week or two weeks to do a VDR, some people may not have the time to outlay that much. Right. Time, you know, the schedule to do that. And they they may want to ride, you know, some really cool mountain passes or drive some cool roads in the desert on a weekend. And so they could consult one of these adventure series maps to show where all these best dirt roads around the state are. And we have them, we don't have them rated, we have them, we have a different term called an experience rating. Like, like, like a um like what um what you could experience on this ride. When you rate a dirt road, you get into some trouble there because Yeah, because it's gonna be different. So exactly, so it's a subjective experience. Exactly. What you may consider is a moderate road, I may consider as really challenging.

SPEAKER_03 43:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

And so you can kind of get yourself into trouble there. So that's why we have this expectation system. Um, like I said, well, I said experience, but I meant expectation. So this expectation system of showing somebody what they could expect on that route, like sand and ledges and uh above timber line, all of these things to help give people that confidence that, okay, this is a route that I want to explore, or maybe I don't want to do this one, I want to do something else. So that in conjunction with those. Maps really are beneficial to move in lockstep with BDR to show people how to use these roads to get to and from the beginning of those right.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

Excellent, excellent. No, okay. Now I'm about to hit you with 10 rapid fire questions. You ready for this? Let's do it.

SPEAKER_04 44:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Okay, let's do it. Okay. Um, now there's one, there's one in here that I'm hesitant to ask you because it may seem silly, but it's it's it's relevant. Okay, so here we go. Number one, favorite stretch of road in the entire Butler maps catalog.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Oh wow. Stretch of road. Can I okay? Can I say air area or okay, we'll we'll go area.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Okay, um, Kaiser Pass Road in Northern California near Forest Hill. So that's a part of the Sierras that's outside of Sacramento, west, uh east of Sacramento, and all of those roads are what we call paved mountain trails. So back when California had money, yeah, they used to pave all of their dirt roads in the backcountry. And so you'll see these narrow sidewalk, golf cart size-wide ribbons of pavement 40, 50 miles back into the backcountry. No kidding. Or, you know, the go. So there's a ton of like there's there's a ton of these awesome narrow paved mountain trails in that area. And of them all, I think like Kaiser Pass, Minarets, like a lot of those roads in that area, I would, I would define as probably the, in my opinion, the the apex of amazing motorcycle experiences in the United States would be the Northern California area. Wow. Because the because the the um the Army Corps of Engineers, especially towards the more western coastal ranges, are they're not they they're not they're not beholden to the same uh parameters that you are in the Sierras and the Rocky Mountains as far as the freeze thaw, you know, freestyle. You can only build the road with so much so much percentage incline because if it turns to ice, cars are just gonna slide down and not be able to get up. Well, on the coastal ranges, you can have routes that are 12, 14, 16, sometimes 20% grades that you're like, wow, this is insane. You better not miss a gear, miss a clutch, you know.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:10

Oh my gosh. Well, are those well this is not not related to this, but are those narrow roads, are they drivable for cars and as well?

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Yes, that's what's harrowing about it. And is it two-way track?

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Is it two-way traffic?

SPEAKER_00 46:23

Two-way traffic. So the reality is so Kaiser Pass is one of the narrowest I've ever ever seen. Um, and it's uh Mosquito Ridge Road is another one. These are in some places, these are eight feet wide, wow, seven feet wide. I've even seen sections that are six feet wide that if you're in like a Corolla, your tires on the outside.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

No way.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

So if there's a car coming, there's a lot of little pull-offs. For a motorcycle, it's easy. I don't know what cars do. You know, if you have a bigger, you know, bigger vehicles don't go on those roads because they just know that you just you not very long when you start one of those roads, it's so narrow that if you're in an RV, you'll see the signs just saying narrow winding road. You'll be like, this is not for me. We also on those on our maps, our G1 series maps, we have these paved mountain trail consulting boxes where we show every single paved mountain trail trail that we've explored, the road status, really, the coordinates, you know, you know, the the type of condition it is, the narrowness, you know. So we have we have all that information to help give people a little bit more confidence to go explore those those types of roads. So I would say that part of California would be some of my best stuff.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

All right, number two, most underrated state to ride in.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Ozarks. Uh-huh. I guess that would be that would that would be uh Arkansas and some of Missouri. You know, so I would say the Ozarks is super underrated. Although I think I think it's getting better. I think a lot more people are recognizing it. It's such an awesome sleeper state to go ride.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

Okay. Uh go to number three. It says go to snack on long scouting days.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

I haven't had long scouting days recently, but I would say uh, man, my wife's gonna be mad if she hears this. It's probably like slim gyms, Tabasco flavored slim gyms. Really? Oh, shit for you, Ted. They're so bad for you, but they just they they hit the bucket. And sometimes you're just tired. Most people don't realize that any anytime you do something as for a living and you're riding seven days a week, yeah, it loses its it loses its novelty. Like, you know, I like sushi, and I could never imagine getting tired of sushi. I could have it every day. But you know, you talk to a sushi chef at a restaurant, they're like, I don't really like sushi. Same thing on a motorcycle. At some day, at some point, you're like, I just need I need something to make me feel better. I'm gonna have my slim gym.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

Uh most surprising thing you've ever discovered while mapping. Um wow, I stumped them.

SPEAKER_00 48:57

Well, there's so many things that I don't really want to say on air because they need to be more censored, but a lot of those things are um, you know, when I was mapping around um the Darien Gap in Kentucky, we were doing the Southern Appalachia uh G1 series map, and um, there were a lot of roads that show up on um various resources that don't exist. They just don't exist. And so Google Maps has them, uh, Apple Maps has them, our gazetteers had them, our benchmark maps had them, but the road just does not exist. I'm sitting on my bike right there and it just dead ends. And I felt like that's so austere to think in this day and age with how many different layers of um redundancy we have with fact checking, yeah, that something just wouldn't exist. I'm sure there's a bunch more things that um were absolutely bonkers that um that I couldn't believe, but that it's that's the only thing that's come to my mind right now.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

That is called in the civil engineering world, because I worked civil engineering for a few years. That is what is those roads you speak of are what are known as paper roads. They exist on paper, they exist in the county documents, they exist in the town documents, city documents, but physically they don't actually exist. Basically, what they're saying is at some point, we may put a road here. That's exactly what that says.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

I love that. Yeah, that's what it is.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

Uh, if you could map any road in the world tomorrow, what road would you go to?

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Uh a friend of mine, uh Pete Day, who started Moscow Moto, he and I are talking about doing a trip to Somaliland. Uh, he just got back from Somaliland, which is an independent uh country of its own right. Most people don't differentiate it from Somalia, but there's uh few routes over the Black Mountains um that would be outstanding to map. You have to have a you have to have uh a private uh security guard and a driver to accompany you because there is a lot of uh security issues, but but the but the area is supposedly amazing, and so that I'd probably route that one.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

Okay. Best time of the year to ride Route 66.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

I would say spring or fall.

SPEAKER_03 51:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:19

Spring or fall for sure. I mean, this this year is an anomaly. You could you could ride it, it'd be perfect right now. I mean, it was 106 degrees in Phoenix last weekend, so that's that's ridiculous. But I think most most of the year, I would say you could do uh April and May, uh late March through May, and you'd love the temps. Once you get a little bit further east, things can get pretty warm. Yeah. Um, and then I would say August, September, and early October would be great as well. Some of the best riding is October, you know. Oh, I bet, yeah. Shorter days, median summers, yeah. You know, the bugs are gone, the kids are in school, you have the road more to yourself. I feel like you're you feel like you're on by time for like winter to start coming in.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

All right. Um let me see. Most challenging terrain you've ever had to map.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Uh pave road terrain would be southern mid-Atlantic states. Really? Because um there's there's so many roads in such a small amount of space.

SPEAKER_03 52:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:31

That that map, if you look at that map, people have said it just looks like a bloodshot eye. There's so much high concentration of roads. You get out west here and you see we have a lot fewer roads. Yeah, you get on the eastern seaboard, you have a lot more people. You have a lot more of these townships and hamlets, right? And they they have a lot more connector roads. And so that was really challenging doing the logistics on that. It took so long. I think we had like 60 or 70,000 miles at least on just that map. Oh, okay. And you're just going out and back five miles, 10 miles this way, back, and then this way, because it's it's hard to just do the looping because you have to ride all of these little segments. And just because it may not have a rating on the map doesn't mean we didn't ride it. It just didn't like satisfy all our criteria on the map. So I'd say southern the eastern seaboard was challenging. It we would have, and it's just because we wanted it, we were way behind schedule because we didn't know what we didn't know. We got in there and we're like, holy cow.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

Wow. Okay. Uh, one landmark on Route 66, everyone should see at least once.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

Um, I would say that it's critical to go see um Oatman. Uh the town of Oatman.

SPEAKER_03 53:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

That uh I would say, you know, if you're if you're from the Midwest or the East Coast, you may not be familiar with Oatman uh as much as some of the stuff on the eastern part of Route 66. Um, but it's something that is absolutely fantastic, not to be missed. Uh, it's an old prospector town, but it also has the historic 66 revitalization to it. You have these iconic, you know, little donkeys that come out of the hills that are wild. They're not they're not pets, they're wild, but they're friendly wild, like studio friendly. They're curious. Yeah, and um, and you have that that southwest desert uh landscape. It's just uh it's it's a it's a phenomenal experience.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

All right. Now, this is the question I wasn't sure I was gonna ask you, but I I think I'm just gonna throw it in there because I'm I'm curious to hear what your response is gonna be, although I think I know what it's gonna be. Okay, so you're out on the bike, you're riding paper maps or GPS. What do you reach for first?

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Um I reach for GPS first.

SPEAKER_04 54:50

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Uh and it it it all depends on what I'm what my objective is. Yeah. If I'm trying to get from point A to point B, I always go for my my phone. You know, I I have this um a friend of mine started uh a hardware device that I think is the next generation of of uh navigation. It's called the Chiggy. And um it's like uh it's like uh uh a CarPlay screen that casts uh on your bike. So you the small hardware device and it casts your phone. Uh and so you don't have to be fumbling with your phone and stuff. You just it it it works exactly like CarPlay. So you can integrate all your apps in that. You can you know if you listen to music on that experience, you know, while while you're riding, you can you can um Bluetooth that in. So you can you can have all this capability just at your fingertips. If that's if that's my objective, they'll definitely go to a GPS or something that's digital oriented. If I'm trying to scout out something I somewhere I've never been, I'll probably use both. I'll just use my Google Earth screen or Google Maps screen, and I'll be drilled down really deep. And in conjunction with paper maps, you know, like a USGS, you know, one to 75,000 K scale map will get you a lot of detail, and then you can see exactly what the the um the contrasts are between what some of our some of our you know mapping programs have versus versus paper map stuff.

SPEAKER_02 56:17

So or or you can reach for a butler map too.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

Absolutely. I have them, I have them. And you know what? I usually give them away when I'm on uh on rides because if somebody I'm talking to and stuff, if they're like don't know, it's somebody that's like, I don't really know I'm gonna go, you know, I'm just gonna follow the sun, follow the you know, the sunset, that's it's cool. Um, but if they want to know, I'll just give them. I'll just give them whatever.

SPEAKER_02 56:38

Oh, there you go. That's cool. That's cool. All right, last question. Your dream motorcycle for a cross-country mapping trip.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

Uh a BMW for sure. It'd be probably the R1250 GS Adventure.

SPEAKER_02 56:51

There you go. All right.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

Those those GSs were the bikes. The GS Adventures were the bikes that we always use to map because um they're a pack mule. They have a lot of wind protection. Oh, really? And that really that really keeps you less tired. At the end of riding several 500 mile days, it doesn't matter who you are, what kind of bike you're on, you're tired. Yeah. You have this accumulation. But it's just the person that's a little bit less tired can ride a little bit longer. And so the GSAs have those big hits and you kind of have a lot of wind blocking. They have big alternators, so you can power up heated gear when you um, you know, when you're in cold weather or inclement weather. And and like I said, you can um you can pack them like a pack mule cruise control.

SPEAKER_02 57:33

That's I mean, I that's yeah, I bet. Yeah. Cruise control rocks, man. So what's next for Butler maps?

SPEAKER_00 57:41

Um, we're having a lot of fun doing these experience series. We have uh, like I said earlier, Pacific Coast Highway that's in the queue coming down the pipeline.

SPEAKER_03 57:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

We have Lincoln Highway, Trail of the Ancients, we have Icefields Parkway, we have Antebellum Trail, we have Route 50, Loneliest Road. So those are exciting, those are fun to do because uh I'm thankful that I get to kind of head a lot of the due diligence and research on that. And so I love to learn about that as well. And so when we we're disseminating all this data that we're bringing in, yeah, you know, from a lot of different resources, and then the project managers are throwing it around and we're kind of putting a cohesive plan together, like reading through all this stuff is just fascinating, you know? And so I like doing that. We're uh we're continuing on our adventure series lineup. We have a Northern California Adventure Series map coming out this summer. We have six other maps that we already have produced there.

SPEAKER_02 58:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

Um, so got a lot of stuff coming down the pipeline.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

Excellent, excellent. Kurt, I want to thank you very much for being on a podcast. I greatly appreciate it. It's been too long. Gonna have to have you back on again real soon when you get some of these other maps done, all right?

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Let's do it. Yeah, thank you, Ted, for everything.

SPEAKER_02 58:52

Sure thing, and thank you very much. And that's gonna do it for this episode of the Motorcycle Men podcast. A huge thanks to Court Butler for hanging out with us and giving us a behind-the-scenes look at how the new Route 66 Experience series map came to life. If today's chat got your throttle hand twitching, head on over to ButlerMaps.com and check out the Route 66 series along with their newest releases. These folks don't just draw lines on paper, they ride the miles, find the gems, and make sure you get the best roads every time. Hey, don't forget to get on over to the Ride with Ted YouTube channel, watch some of the many videos I have there, and if you would please also like and subscribe. That would be tremendous help to the channel, and of course, to the podcast. Hey, get your copy of my book, The Road Most Traveled, now direct from me on the Motorcycle Men website, and save nearly eight dollars. Of course, it is still available on Amazon and Audible, but you can get it from me. And if you want, I'll even assign it for you. Hey, as always, thanks for tuning in, supporting the show, and keeping the motorcycle men community rolling. Ride safe, ride often, and remember, the shortest distance between two points is never the fun one. So for the rest of the motorcycle men team, thanks for listening. And remember, boys and girls, we say stupid crap so you don't have it. Right safe.